Talk:Dál Riata

So was Dalriada settled by the Irish or not?

Has this debate been resolved yet? Do most experts now believe that Dalriada was NOT settled by Irish colonizers around 500 BCE? Please let me know. Thanks.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.152.97 (talk • contribs) .

I've never heard the suggestion 500BC. If you mean 500AD, that date is held by almost no-one these days, and is besides contradicted by Roman sources which put Gaels firmly settled in Scotland by at least 360 AD. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The case against colonisation is given in Ewan Campbell's "Were the Scots Irish ?" in Antiquity, volume 75, pp. 285–292. The article doesn't go into any detail on this as I only read it recently. "Where did they come from ?" type questions are hard to answer. There were, as Calgacus says, Scotti living in the island of Britain before the Romans left. Not just in Argyll, but also in some extreme western parts of England and Wales, and perhaps in the Rhinns of Galloway where there is a dense cluster of old Goidelic place-names. Leslie Alcock in Kings and Warriors, Craftsmen and Priests (another source I have not had time to incorporate into the article) takes the possible early Gaels of Galloway as undermining the anti-colonial argument, but I'm not sure it does. As for an earlier colonisation, that's what Bede says in the Ecclesiastical History of the English People, Book One, Chapter One: the Irish conquered part of Britain from the Picts "after the time" that the Picts arrived in Britain. The next chapter is about the Romans. Did Bede intend that to mean that the Irish came to Britain before the Romans did ? That would be a stretch. We won't know for a long time to come what the consensus view is of Campbell's theory, but so far it has some support and little overt opposition. Angus McLellan (Talk) 08:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.70.27 (talk • contribs) .

I wasn't alive back 2000 years ago, but I am pretty certain that the Irish, known to the Romans as the Scotti, had boats and were pretty adventurous, and sailed across the seas to Scotland, England and Wales, and I don't need a university don to explain that. No More POV Please 16:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The Irish were known as Hiberni, the Scotti were the Gaels, not merely the Irish. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Why make it so complicated? No More POV Please 17:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. As all Irish then were Gaels, but not all Gaels were Irish, Gaels is the better term to use. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

What date are you talking about? No More POV Please 18:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Dál Riata dates. Obviously after the coming of the Norse and Normans/English, not all Irish were Gaels. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The people of Ireland were Gaelic by culture only at this time. And even then, there might still have been some resistance to the Gaelic invasion/assimilation. Not all the 'Irish' were Gaelic in origin. --Mal 04:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

So the Dal Riatans, who are listed as related to the Hiberni, aren't Irish? You are the guy who thinks Columba was Cruthni right?

Thank you again for sharing your insight into this matter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.129.131 (talk • contribs) .

Hello everybody,

Is this the article Ewan Campbell wrote for Antiquity? I found it after doing a Google search on the Internet. It is in HTML format:

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:xpti7DoELHQJ:www.antiquity.ac.uk/Ant/075/0285/Ant0750285.pdf+ewan+campbell%27s+theory+on+dalriada&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=16

I think Dr Campbell makes some very compelling and insightful arguments in this piece. What do you folks think of his theories? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.113.178 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 13 April 2006.

That's once source for Campbell's theory, and the longest, but there others. In Dunadd: An Early Dalriadic Capital (Oxbow, 2000), pp. 31–34, written with Alan Lane, Campbell makes the same general points as in the Antiquity article, as he did in Saints and sea-kings (1999). Foster mentions the subject in Picts, Gaels and Scots, pp. 9–10, and quotes David Dumville as saying "the stories of Dalriadic origins cannot be held to be worthy of acceptance as history" (the quotation is presumably from "Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages" in Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig 2000). As Campbell notes, every other presumed pre-historic migration in Britain and Ireland had been addressed critically, except for this one. Part of the problem may be that the ghost of T. F. O'Rahilly is still in the chair. JP Mallory was quoted as saying that he could not imagine that "Celtic" languages came to Ireland as a lingua franca. If the makings of Goidelic had to be brought to Ireland by invaders, then it would presumably come to Scotland the same way (although why that should be in 300 AD or 500 AD, rather than at the same time as in Ireland, who can say). However, not everyone agrees with Mallory. Waddell & Conroy's paper arguing for the unimaginable ("Celts and others" in Language and Archaeology IV) postdates Mallory's opinion, and their ideas on creolisation are advanced by Ian Armit in the Historic Scotland book Celtic Scotland, pp. 21–24. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for responding to my post, Angus. I appreciate it. Your response was very informative and useful. Here's another article that supports Campbell's theory:

http://www.travels-in-time.net/e/scotland11arteng.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.68.234 (talk • contribs) .

Here is the main-stream view, Campbell is not really an historian, although he does have much to add to this topical arguement. The Celtic language must have developed over many centuries, it just didn't come and remain the same. This applies to all languages, I presume. It could be the meld of several languages.

• http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/scotland/western/index.shtml

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.226.89 (talk • contribs) .

Thank you for providing this link. Dalriada is such an interesting topic! That BBC article is very explanatory, actually it is much easier to understand than the Wikipedia article. The Wikipedia article is a bit woolly for my liking. 83.70.223.80 21:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Two things here, first the term Hiberni is a older term for the Irish by the Romans which falls out of use by the time the term Scotti is coined, it is used by the Romans to continue to describe the exploits of the Hiberni, suggesting that scotti meant Hiberni or Irish. Scotti is used well into the late medieval period For example, John Scotus Eriugena means John the Irishman born in Ireland. Campbells arguments has been mostly picked apart by historians at this point, his archaeological arguments are generally regarded as nonsense, such as his claim that cronnags in Ireland date to 600AD, when from what little Irish crannogs have been excavated has shown they date to the bronze age around 900BC.. It's likely Crannogs in Ireland are far older probably Mesolithic or Neolithic. As for Irish ring forts they where not fully established during the period when the invasion/Migration was said to have taken place, so could not have been part of a package of Irish invaders.. Although, the linguistic evidence seems to heavily support a Irish migration/invasion into Northern Britain. There is hundreds of papers out there concocting all manner of theories as to how Dal riatia came about, many sticking with the traditional Irish migration model and some suggesting a newer revisionist model, the reality is we really don't know, it's hard to distinguish or prove any invasions between Britain and Ireland because the archaeology is so similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.13.96 (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

I am outraged that "Asarlaí" would have undone my correction about the name. I am also bemused that no-one seems to be bothered to look in any normal dictionary for words like Riata and Robodgii or even Cairbre. It is perfectly obvious that "Cairbre Riata" is a job title. For a full understanding of Dalriata see these excellent papers: https://www.academia.edu/87614386/ https://www.academia.edu/45450918/ https://www.academia.edu/45629939/ Freuchie (talk) 12:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Too much Campbell...

I think there is too much discussion of Dr Ewan Campbell’s theories, which only creates the impression that there is real debate or uncertainty on the subject of where Dal Riata originated, or even that Dr Campbell’s views are the new consensus, when the reality is that the historiographical consensus is that Dal Riata originated in Ireland. I think discussion of his marginal views should be scaled back considerably and greater prominence given to the historiographical consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.213.173 (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I concur. Cagwinn (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I concur also. Amongst the simplistic carelessness is the conflation of Erc and Erca and the assumption that there could have been only one ingress. He then goes on to create a false dichotomy regarding the nature of any ingress. He also fails to acknowledge the colony of Cruithin in Ulster even in Ptolemy's time and he fails to recognise the way in which WITHIN IRELAND one ruling dynasty can be replaced by another - without it necessarily implicating the culture or the mass of the people. The real situation is set out in my book "Arthur: Legend, Logic & Evidence" which knits together apparently mutually exclusive claims into one coherent piece. I understand that it is conventional not to cite yourself in articles which is why I do it only here on the talk page. Campbell's article is nonsense from beginning to end. Why is it still the core of the Wikipedia argument on the matter?Freuchie (talk) 14:51, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

One of Campbell's more bizarre arguments is that there are no relics of Brythonic/Pictish in Argyll placenames. It took me no more than 5 minutes to find Creag Ghlas about 1km NW of Lochgilphead. In Pictish (and Old old Irish) this means green - Green crag is a perfectly reasonable descriptor (and so it turns out to be) - but by the times he is talking about while glas still meant Green in Pictish (whence eg the Glassie - Glass-ie, the Green Burn) in Gaelic it had come to mean "water" (thus, for example Finglas and Dubhglas) and it makes no sense to call a Crag "Water Craig". I am sure that there will be many more to be found. Freuchie (talk) 15:34, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Ahem.... and then there are the Annals of Clonmacnoise which for the year 666 remark: "The race of Gartnayt of Pictland RETURNED to Ireland." Freuchie (talk) 14:49, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Dalaruan (Campbelltown) was identified as from Dal Riata

Is there any truth to the identification of Dalaruan (Campbelltown) as from Dal Riata? It is said to be a contraction of Dalruadhain.

Also within the Parish of Campbelltown is Tirfergus.

Dal Riata reference in the Annals

CS The ten rivers, moreover, were, the Buas, between Dál Araidhe and Dál Riada, and the Ruirtech or River Liffe; and the Berbha of Laighen; and the Laoi in Mumhan;

CS498 Fergus Mor Mac Erca, with the tribe of Dál Riada, held a part of Britain and died there.

[AI503.1 Kl. Repose of Domangart of Cenn Tíre.]

[AI541.1 Kl. Death of king Comgall, son of Domangart. [AU 538, 542, 545].]

CS573 Death in the sixteenth year of his reign of Conall son of Comgall, king of Dál Riata who granted the island of Ia to Colum Cille.

[T574.1 The battle of Delgu in Cantyre in which Dunchadh son of Conall son of Comgall and many others of the friends of the sons of Garban fell.]

[U576.1 The battle of Teloch in Cenn Tíre.]

U616.1 Death of Suibne son of Crechéne, king of Ciannachta Glinne Geimin, and death of Aedán son of Mongan, king of Dál Riata or nAraide and death of Petrán bishop of Lusca.

U627.1 The battle of Ard Corann in which fell Fiachna son of Demán: the Dál Riata were victors.

T627.6 Mongan son of Fiachna Lurgan, stricken with a stone by Artur son of Bicoir Britone died. Whence Bec Boirche said:

Cold is the wind over Islay;

There are warriors in Cantyre,

They will commit a cruel deed therefor,

They will kill Mongan son of Fiachna.

The church of Cluain Airthir today,

Good are the four on whom it has been closed,

Cormac Caoem at tribulation,

And Illann, son of Fiachra.

And the other two

Whom many territories serve,

Mongán son of Fiachna Lurgan,

And Rónán son of Tuathal.

CS627 The battle of Ard Corann won by the Dál Riata in which fell Fiachna son of Demán by the king of Dál Riata.

U629.1 The battle of Fid Eóin in which Mael Caích son of Scannal, king of the Cruithin, was victor. The Dál Riata fell. Connid Cerr, king of Dál Riatai, fell.

T632.1 The battle of Fid Eoin in which Mael Caith son of Scannal, king of cruithniu, was the victor.Connadh Cerr king of Dál Riada fell, and Dicuill son of Eachach king of Cenél Cruithne fell and the nephews of Aedan fell, that is, Rigullán son of Conaing and Failbe son of Eachach and Oisric son of Albruit, crown prince of England with their utmost destruction.

U673.2 The killing of Domangart son of Domnall Brec, king of Dál Riata.

T673.2 The slaying of Domangort son of Domnall Breac king of Dál Riada.

CS673 The killing of Domangart son of Domnall Brec, king of Dál Riata.

U676.2 The killing of Mael Dúin son of Rigullán, and of Bodb son of Rónán grandson of Congal.

U681.3 The killing of Conall Cael son of Dúnchad in Cenn Tíre.

CS681 The killing of Conall son of Dúnchad in Cenn Tíre.

U691.3 The Dál Riata despoiled the Cruithin and the Ulaid.

U700.4 Fiannamail grandson of Dúnchad, king of Dál Riata, and Flann son of Cenn Faelad son of Suibne, were killed.

U704.1 Destruction of the Dál Riata in Glenn Limnae.

T704.2 The Strages of the Dál Riada in the valley of the Levin Water.

CS703 Destruction of the Dál Riata in Linn Limniae.

U711.5 An encounter of Britons and the Dál Riata at Lorg Ecclet, in which the Britons were defeated.

T711.5 The congress of the Britons and Dal Riada on Lorg Eclat, where the Britons were (overcome).

U717.5 An encounter between the Dál Riata and Britons at the rock called Minuirc, and the Britons were defeated.

T717.4 The meeting of Dál Riada and the Britons in a stone called Minuircc, and the Britons are subdued.

CS717 An encounter between the Dál Riata and the Britons at the rock called Minuirce, and the Britons were defeated.

[U721.1 Dúnchad Bec, king of Cenn Tíre, dies.]

[T721.1 Dunchadh Becc, king of Cantyre, died.]

T723.4 The clericalism of Selbach king of Dal Riada.

U731.5 A battle between the Cruithin and the Dál Riata of In Muirbolg, in which the Cruithin were defeated.

T731.4 A battle between the Picts and the Dál Riada in Murbolg where the Picts were beaten.

T733.4 Flaithbeartach led the classem{?} of Dal Riada into Spain and great slaughter was was made of them in the island of Oine, where these men were slaughtered: Conchobhar son of Lochene and Branchu son of Bran and many were drowned in the river called the Bann.

U736.1 Aengus son of Fergus, king of the Picts, laid waste the territory of Dál Riata and seized Dún At and burned Creic and bound in chains two sons of Selbach, i.e. Donngal and Feradach; and shortly afterwards Bruide son of Aengus son of Fergus died.

T736.1 Aongus son of Fergus, king of the Picts, laid waste regions of Dal Riata and took Dun Ad, and burned Creic, and binded two sons of Selbach with chains i.e. Donngal and Feradhach, and a little after Brudeus son of Aongus son of Fergus dies.

U736.2 The battle of Cnoc Cairpri in Calathros at Etarlinde between Dál Riata and Foirtriu, and Talorgan son of Fergus goes in pursuit of Ainfchellach's son who had taken flight, many nobles falling in this encounter.

U741.10 The battle of Druim Cathmail between the Cruithin and the Dál Riata against Indrechtach. The smiting of the Dál Riata by Aengus son of Forgus.

U778.7 Niall Frosach son of Fergal in Í Choluim Chille, and Niall son of Conall Grant, king of southern Brega, and Tuathal son of Cremthann, king of Cuala, and Flannabra, king of Uí Máil, and Aed Finn son of Echaid, king of Dál Riata—all died.

U781.3... Fergus son of Eochu, king of Dál Riata — all died.

U792.4 ..., Dorm Corci, king of Dál Riata, ..., died.

[U807.3 The killing of Conall son of Tadc, by Conall son of Aedacán in Cenn Tíre.]

U878.2 Aed son of Cinaed, king of the Picts, was killed by his own associates. [U878.3 Gairbíth son of Mael Brigte, king of Conaille, was beheaded by the Uí Echach.

Rhodri of Manu, splendid here,

Aed from the lands of Cenn Tíre,

Donnchad, lustrous stuff of sovereignty,

Gairíth, diadem of smooth Macha—

Whenever I bring it to mind

It inflames the limits of my heart,

Cold flags over temples of the buried,

Barrfhinn of Bile is distraught.]

U914 The army of the North and the Ulaid was led by Niall son of Aed into Mide to Greilach Eilte. Flann son of Mael Sechnaill with his sons routed them there, and there fell there a number of them including ... Diarmaid son of Selbach king of Dál Riata, ... .

U986.2 The Danes arrived on the coast of Dál Riata, that is, with three ships, and seven score of them were executed and others sold.

U989.4 Gothfrith son of Aralt, king of Inse Gall, was killed in Dál Riata.

T989.3 Godfrey son of Harald, king of the Hebrides, fell by the Dál Riada.

CS989 Gothfrith son of Aralt, king of Inse Gall, fell by the Dál Riata.

U1013.10 Muirchertach son of Aed ua Néill was killed by the Dál Riatai.

[U1164.4 Somharlidh Mac Gilla-Adhamhnain and his son were killed and slaughter of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Cenn-tire and of the men of Insi-Gall and of the Foreigners of Ath-cliath [took place] around him]

[T1164.6 Somhairle son of Giolla Bríde, king of the Hebrides and Cantyre, and his son Giolla Bríde, were killed by the men of Scotland, with slaughter of Foreigners of Dublin with them.]

Excessive links

I cut down the number of links in the article because we have what are effectively duplicate links, see WP:DUPLICATELINK. For example, "Cenel Loairn" was a pipe to "Loairn mac Eirc", which is itself linked in the same sentence. Also "Morvern" was linked twice in the space of a couple of lines. PatGallacher (talk) 20:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)